Sunfighter

Thoughts, ideas, memories, you name it! Share your favorite stories, albums, tracks and more.

Re: Sunfighter

Postby usedtobebabson on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:38 am

This thread has been quite a learning experience for me, over 40 years later. Back then, I was just "Riding the music"....!
Where have all the young men gone? Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone? Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?
User avatar
usedtobebabson
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:37 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington

Re: Sunfighter

Postby oldblue on Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:39 pm

How do you feel to shoot down your brother now
And bury us in cages of cement and steel

What do you see when you look at one another now

Who do you see tell me how do you feel

Sing a song for the children who are gone
Sing a song for Diana

Huntress of the moon and a lady of the Earth

Weather woman Diana

Here’s how I read this:

The first stanza is addressed to the establishment, which represents the force behind the shooting of young people as at Kent State/Jackson State or in the Chicago Police-FBI murder of Black Panther Fred Hampton and for jailing radicals for things such as draft evasion, burning of draft cards, the Days of Rage, bombings, etc.

Kantner then tells these people of the establishment to look at each other (as if they are looking in a mirror) and to take stock of what they are or what they have become. Take a good look at yourselves; you should be ashamed of what you are he is telling them. Tell me what you really see when you strip your actions down to the base. He implores them to have what Kerouac termed “a moment of naked lunch when you see exactly what it is that’s on the end of your fork.”

He begins the next stanza by lamenting the fate of all those who have suffered (killed, jailed, or forced underground) because of the actions of the establishment. This includes Diana who should, in particular, be remembered and immortalized in song with the others . His invocation recalls the opening of the Iliad, that epic poem which venerates the deeds of the hero Achilles: ”Sing, goddess, the wrath of Achilles. . .”

Kantner then takes the giant step of deifying Diana Oughton by equating her with “Diana, the Roman goddess who was known by many names, including Queen of Heaven, the Great Goddess, Lunar Virgin, Mother of Animals, Lady of Wild Creatures, and the Huntress. Diana as the Roman Moon-Goddess was originally worshipped on the mountain Tifata near Capua and in sacred forests. Later she was given a temple in the working-class area on the Aventine Hill where she was mainly worshipped by the lower class (plebeians) and the slaves, of whom she was the patroness. She is often depicted carrying a bow and arrow and wearing animal skins or accompanied by animals. . .

“The multi-breasted statue of Diana at her temple in Ephesus displayed her capability to nourish all creatures and provide for them. Worshippers adored Goddess Diana so much that the only way the Christians could rid the people of their Goddess was by assimilating her into their new religion. Thus Ephesus became a place of Mary, Mother of God. The church even invented stories of Mary living at Ephesus and being entombed there.”

So Diana is transformed into a nurturer and provider and friend of the downtrodden, in Kantner’s view. Se is a great and wonderful personification of the female, this weather woman Diana, and her deeds deserve to be remembered for generations to come.

I call that veneration and deification.
Last edited by oldblue on Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
oldblue
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:46 pm

Re: Sunfighter

Postby redrabid on Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:08 pm

Hmmm, interesting ideas OB. Although I am not convinced yet, you could be right. It all depends who you think the song is adressing. Maybe the ambivalence was intentional. Did Kantner himself ever comment upon this song? I do agree with you that their flirtations with Hoffmann c.s. were a great error of judgement.
redrabid
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:31 pm

Re: Sunfighter

Postby oldblue on Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:57 pm

redrabid wrote:Hmmm, interesting ideas OB. Although I am not convinced yet, you could be right. It all depends who you think the song is adressing. Maybe the ambivalence was intentional. Did Kantner himself ever comment upon this song? I do agree with you that their flirtations with Hoffmann c.s. were a great error of judgement.


i don't see any ambivalence. and who he is addressing is clear as day. he is anointing her and placing her in the pantheon.

as far as i'm concerned anyone who was stupid enough to listen to to abbie hoffman deserved what they got. who elected him the leader of anything anyway.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
oldblue
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:46 pm

Re: Sunfighter

Postby plasticfantastic on Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:53 pm

oldblue wrote:as far as i'm concerned anyone who was stupid enough to listen to to abbie hoffman deserved what they got. who elected him the leader of anything anyway.


Leader... with Hoffman, leader was sort of a loose term. I think the point was that he wasn't a leader. Not saying necessarily believe what he said, but I have read one of his books (which, I might add, was highly entertaining), and I'm pretty sure that "leader" was exactly what he didn't want to be.

Then again, I am not the least bit qualified to analyze Abbie Hoffman.
Trouble in mind, lord I'm blue
But I won't be blue always
The sun's gonna shine in my door,
Shine in my back door someday
User avatar
plasticfantastic
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:17 pm
Location: Sunny California, not San Francisco though. If only...

Re: Sunfighter

Postby oldblue on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:25 pm

plasticfantastic wrote:
oldblue wrote:as far as i'm concerned anyone who was stupid enough to listen to to abbie hoffman deserved what they got. who elected him the leader of anything anyway.


Leader... with Hoffman, leader was sort of a loose term. I think the point was that he wasn't a leader. Not saying necessarily believe what he said, but I have read one of his books (which, I might add, was highly entertaining), and I'm pretty sure that "leader" was exactly what he didn't want to be.

Then again, I am not the least bit qualified to analyze Abbie Hoffman.


well for someone who didn't want to be a leader, he sure seemed to wrap himself in the mantle as often as he could. but that's just about right for a media whore like he was. who pays attention to the foot soldier over the general.

the who's finest moment came during their set at woodstock when abbie hoffman appropriated the microphone for one of his insane and inane radical screeds and pete townsend put a stop to it by bonking him on the head with his guitar. score one for the good guys.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
oldblue
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:46 pm

Re: Sunfighter

Postby plasticfantastic on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:36 pm

oldblue wrote:
well for someone who didn't want to be a leader, he sure seemed to wrap himself in the mantle as often as he could. but that's just about right for a media whore like he was. who pays attention to the foot soldier over the general.


Well, I'm not justifying anything he did... only saying what I am relatively sure he believed, although I read Revolution For the Hell of It over a year ago, and my memory may be a tad foggy.

True, it doesn't really make all that much sense. Any, really. The thing is (again, not justifying, only observing) the Yippies were really about media whoring by definition. Their objective, from what I can tell, was first and foremost to be noticed. Extreme activism of the sort they practiced was intended to attract attention to their group, and thus their cause. Or so it seems, anyway.
Trouble in mind, lord I'm blue
But I won't be blue always
The sun's gonna shine in my door,
Shine in my back door someday
User avatar
plasticfantastic
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:17 pm
Location: Sunny California, not San Francisco though. If only...

Re: Sunfighter

Postby Susan Butcher on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:41 pm

I'm sure Kantner was thinking of Diana the Huntress when he wrote that. It's still very inappropriate; this huntress shot herself with her own arrow, making for unintentional black comedy.
Last edited by Susan Butcher on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I ain't got the blues no more I said"
User avatar
Susan Butcher
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia.

Re: Sunfighter

Postby oldblue on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:41 pm

plasticfantastic wrote:
oldblue wrote:
well for someone who didn't want to be a leader, he sure seemed to wrap himself in the mantle as often as he could. but that's just about right for a media whore like he was. who pays attention to the foot soldier over the general.


Well, I'm not justifying anything he did... only saying what I am relatively sure he believed, although I read Revolution For the Hell of It over a year ago, and my memory may be a tad foggy.

True, it doesn't really make all that much sense. Any, really. The thing is (again, not justifying, only observing) the Yippies were really about media whoring by definition. Their objective, from what I can tell, was first and foremost to be noticed. Extreme activism of the sort they practiced was intended to attract attention to their group, and thus their cause. Or so it seems, anyway.


the media whoring predates the yippies
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
oldblue
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:46 pm

Re: Sunfighter

Postby Susan Butcher on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:49 pm

I know a "media whore". Being the centre of attention is her reward for promoting a good cause no-one else has thought of yet. I don't hate her for it. It just seems silly to me.

I'm not a big fan of Abbie Hoffman, but to be fair the ludicrous performance for the sake of attention seemed like a good idea then. I'm quite fond of old General Wastemoreland.
"I ain't got the blues no more I said"
User avatar
Susan Butcher
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia.

Re: Sunfighter

Postby plasticfantastic on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:09 pm

oldblue wrote:the media whoring predates the yippies


Most definitely. And as Susan said, it postdates them as well. I don't know if "postdates" is a word, but it should be...

I do agree with you, Susan. It certainly does seem silly. I think that media exposure has a lot of power, and that it can get things done in a lot of cases, but even so, it seems rather purposeless without a concrete cause, and the Yippies certainly did not have one.
Trouble in mind, lord I'm blue
But I won't be blue always
The sun's gonna shine in my door,
Shine in my back door someday
User avatar
plasticfantastic
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:17 pm
Location: Sunny California, not San Francisco though. If only...

Re: Sunfighter

Postby oldblue on Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:55 am

plasticfantastic wrote:
oldblue wrote:the media whoring predates the yippies


Most definitely. And as Susan said, it postdates them as well. I don't know if "postdates" is a word, but it should be...

I do agree with you, Susan. It certainly does seem silly. I think that media exposure has a lot of power, and that it can get things done in a lot of cases, but even so, it seems rather purposeless without a concrete cause, and the Yippies certainly did not have one.


having a cause is playing their game. living a life is being free.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
oldblue
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:46 pm

Re: Sunfighter

Postby redrabid on Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:28 am

But how can you live free, while others are living in chains?
redrabid
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:31 pm

Re: Sunfighter

Postby CookOfTheHouse on Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:26 am

redrabid wrote:But how can you live free, while others are living in chains?


Now that's a whole new subject, redrabit, and I think it's a political debate, on one hand, people who think a little bit like you, we can't be happy/free unless everyone else is happy too and by the other hand, people who think like me, everyone is responsible for their own happiness, if I achieve it and someone else doesn't, it's his problem, I can't stop moving forward and growing just because someone else isn't. We all are born with the same "tools", it's up to us to use 'em so I do think I can be free and happy while others are living in chains.
User avatar
CookOfTheHouse
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:07 pm
Location: Perú

Re: Sunfighter

Postby oldblue on Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:48 am

redrabid wrote:But how can you live free, while others are living in chains?


we do it everyday. doesn't make it right. you have to blind yourself to a great deal of the madness to be able to function. it's all just too horrible.

tell me what to do to make everything right and i'll do it.

Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
“How good, how good does it feel to be free?”
And I answer them most mysteriously
“Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?”

—Bob Dylan
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." — George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
oldblue
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:46 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Jefferson Airplane Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], MSNbot Media and 1 guest

cron