jim morrison: poseur or shaman?

[oldblue]

I can vouch for Jim + The Doors as a shaman. It was their music that knocked the drugs, alcoholism, and music obsessions right out of me. It wasn't pretty but it worked.
He helped to open a door to my subconscious so that I could see that what was afflicting me was due to issues in my infancy that my conscious mind could not remember. Although it was a slow sometimes painful process I began to understand myself better. Eventually I stumbled upon my birth mother on the internet and then found evidence I was adopted though nobody in my family ever told me. I spent the last few years studying and re-entering her atmosphere. One of the problems with a reunion of mother and son who had been given up at birth is that sometimes they pick up where they left off which is the natural act of breastfeeding. So it can sometimes lead to a messed up Oedipal response. So I have only met her once so far while she had a cop standing over her shoulder. She has 3 grandchildren. It's very slow surreal ass-backwards trip over here.

thanks. i sure needed to know all that.

[redrabid]

Do I have to rationalize everything, Okeedoe? I think that is inevitable, dont you, if we want to communicate our feelings and experiences. We have to translate them into words, using various distorting cultural conceptions. Spoken or written down, a lot gets lost in the translation.
Yes, I like to think about me and the world. I can advise it to everyone. It kept me out of the hands of stargazers, mentalists and gurus (including the baby Jesus) and all other "spiritual" frauds.
And shrinks. You're fired.

(After 5 hours some editing :"Distorting" is I think the wrong word. "Shaping" is better)

If you are still not convinced, Oldblue, google a bit. You will be surprised how many musicians say that they were influenced by The Doors. But I admit those confessions aren't always very convincing.

[nicktecky]

RR: you're a cat man!!! My old boy is suffering with fleas at the moment, so it's off to the vet later. But of course he's gone missing straight after breakfast,

Jim Morrison /The Doors:
Yep, lots of groups reference them, but the 'greatness' seems to rely on Morrison's death more than anything else. They bombed outside the US, but did produce a couple of RnR classics.
Like so many, an 'early' death has been exploited and perverted by fans and the industry to make any objective assessment near impossible. Joplin, Lennon, Bolan, Hendrix all suffer the same IMHO.
JM - shaman? Apparently he took drugs and induced a trance-like state and attempted to communicate via the experience, so shaman will do, but it's a bit of a stretch. Psychedelic as a word has meaning very dependant on context, but if JM entered an enhanced mental state and then used music to communicate the experience, then it is psychedelic music. But so what?
Poseur? Of course, he was the lead singer of a rock n roll band, what else would he be?

BTW You guys may be interested in a BBC radio programme just aired about John Lennon:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qxsb links to BBC iPlayer or podcast.
Some interesting insight into some of the insecurity behind so much of the front, and how much BS he deliberately put out just to confuse people trying to 'shrink' him.
It's a good series with a lot of recent history by the people who were there.

[Susan Butcher]

The other thing is, what's a "shaman" in the context of our kind of society? Is just an unnecessary excuse for taking acid or whatever, one that won't do a bit of good if you're arrested? What's the parallel between being a rock singer and being a healer in a traditional society? I know there are people who like to think of themselves as shamans who can't even cope with their own problems, let alone heal others.

Are enough of you interested in the Elevators to make "Tommy Hall: psychedelic visionary or self-deluded redneck bigot?" a worthwhile topic?

[nicktecky]

Agreed, you'd have to be pretty far gone to use some drug crazed rock singer as a healer!

Has anyone else called JM a Shaman? There's certainly no connection with Shamanism as described in wiki.

Maybe OB is just teasing us again, setting up an Aunt Sally to see if we queue up to knock it down!
What a tinker he is!

[okeedoe]

Oh,man,here he goes again!The Red Frenzy strikes again!To communicate our feelings and experiences,my ass.You have to zealously rationalize everything because you're afraid of losing orientation in the maze of your own insanity.Your posts make a most surrealistic scenes on the forum.lol Yes Red,you're crazy like a bag of squirrels and you know it.

You can't fire me because you didn't hire me. I took the job by myself only to irritate you .I am not a shrink,I am a firebrand and bad hat and I don't fit you,believe me.

Quit inviting me for a drink,I'm afraid of you.lolAnd besides, I wouldn't have any use of you for I do only women.



That's a splendid idea ,dear Susan.I would say a psychedelic pseudovisionary bigot emerged from the generally-deluded redneck bigot country.

[oldblue]

Agreed, you'd have to be pretty far gone to use some drug crazed rock singer as a healer!

Has anyone else called JM a Shaman? There's certainly no connection with Shamanism as described in wiki.

Maybe OB is just teasing us again, setting up an Aunt Sally to see if we queue up to knock it down!
What a tinker he is!

you might want to start here:

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AvX ... =yfp-t-701

[nicktecky]

Err... I say OB, rather than just post a simple Yahoo search, which I can do for myself thanks, could you give us your own take on the issue?

BTW: The search ("jim morrison" "shaman") yielded the usual collection of nut jobs and pseudo mystic claptrap. And wiki, making no reference. A news item, again no reference other than to the more deranged of his 'fans'.
The last on the first page yielded this:
...........
Stanley Krippner, Ph.D.

Abstract: Jim Morrison, the rock musician, was influenced by shamanism, and performances of his group, The Doors, contained ritualistic elements. One of their songs was titled "Shaman Blues," and another contained references to "the Lizard King," an appellation for Morrison himself. The case can be made that Morrison served shamanic functions for his "community" of fans. However, he lacked the commitment to this community and the disciplined use of altered states of consciousness that characterize traditional shamans. When he died in 1971, shamanic references abounded. However, at best, Morrison can be considered a failed shaman; nevertheless, The Doors recorded five gold record albums in a row, and the surviving members of the group still perform.
.............
So do you think you could look up your own searches in future, then we would all have a common reference to start from?
Cheers

[oldblue]

Err... I say OB, rather than just post a simple Yahoo search, which I can do for myself thanks, could you give us your own take on the issue?

BTW: The search ("jim morrison" "shaman") yielded the usual collection of nut jobs and pseudo mystic claptrap. And wiki, making no reference. A news item, again no reference other than to the more deranged of his 'fans'.
The last on the first page yielded this:
...........
Stanley Krippner, Ph.D.

Abstract: Jim Morrison, the rock musician, was influenced by shamanism, and performances of his group, The Doors, contained ritualistic elements. One of their songs was titled "Shaman Blues," and another contained references to "the Lizard King," an appellation for Morrison himself. The case can be made that Morrison served shamanic functions for his "community" of fans. However, he lacked the commitment to this community and the disciplined use of altered states of consciousness that characterize traditional shamans. When he died in 1971, shamanic references abounded. However, at best, Morrison can be considered a failed shaman; nevertheless, The Doors recorded five gold record albums in a row, and the surviving members of the group still perform.
.............
So do you think you could look up your own searches in future, then we would all have a common reference to start from?
Cheers

you're the one who wanted to know. i'd say in the future be careful what you ask for.

[redrabid]

I think I succeeded in turning the tables, Okeedoe, or is this the illusion of a madman? Shall I play Lucy "The Doctor Is In" for you? "Did you have a very bad day, Okeedoe? You really must try to get your emotions into perspective!"
And your remark about those "surrealistic scenes" you made, I consider that a compliment on this forum dedicated to a psychedelic group. Gee, and I am not even an acidhead. "But completely bonkers anyway" I hear you say.
No I am not angry with you, Okeedoe, really. I am very understanding, I know all about the fears of a straight man. And I mean straight in more than one way.
Hmm, "Red Frenzy". I must remember that one. I like it.

[IneedaBonghit]

thanks. i sure needed to know all that.

Your welcome. I figured you would be interested to know there was a method and message to Jim's Oedipal lyrics in "The End". The Doors got tossed from the Whiskey-a-go-go for that one.

Jim had studied Shamanism, wrote a song called "Shaman's Blues", and was very interested in Native American culture. Ray Manzarek in many interviews refers to Jim as a Shaman and that Jim was real. It was not an excuse to take hallucinogens. He's real alright, I've seen his magic first hand.

[nicktecky]

Ahhhh... OB I get the game now.
Cheers, good luck!

[okeedoe]

Relax,old boy.I've never considered you a lunatic or anything similar.How could have I.I know nothing about you.I just like to play provoking games sometimes and you are easy to lure into it.I won't do that anymore because I'm begining to like you.

And you are wrong about the ''fears of a straight men''.I don't have fears of that sort.Two of my friends are homosexuals.A most decent persons I have ever known.I know them for all of my life and I would never let them down.

You,twat.

[redrabid]

Okeedoe, do you remember that I wrote in one of my posts "I can play that game too"? So, I did. Not unsuccesfully. Great game, the hunter and his prey. Are you sure that you don't want me to play Lucy? I love Lucy. Great, big mouthed know-it-all. She may have been a role model for you-know-who.

[okeedoe]

Ok,Lucy.Begin the treatment.I''ll give you a candy bar.