what is your definition of psychedelic?

[redrabid]

It is an age old philosophical axiom that it is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. It is up to those who say that it does exist to prove that.

[okeedoe]

Believers doesn't need prove for existence of God.That's why it is called a belief.It is not a math problem.Unbelievers that ardently deny God in fact are invoking Him.Otherwise why denying something that doesn't exist.Maybe it is underlying fear of hell also involved.
This could be an endless debate ,you know.

[Susan Butcher]

It might well be an endless debate, but I like it! Though it's nice to spend time in the company of acidheads because they kind of know what you're talking about, this is better for drawing the line as to what I believe. I don't think science can explain human consciousness, that's all. If the experience of "I" (along with the smell of strawberries and the colour blue) is an electrical and chemical "illusion" created by the brain, then what the heck is having that illusion?! Science has a disappointing habit of saying "We can't answer that, so it's a meaningless question." How many of you have dreams? How can you possibly prove that you dream to another person? You can't photograph the things!

[redrabid]

Hell? You seriously do believe in hell? Even most christians don't believe in hell anymore. At least in Europe. It is considered by most to be a cruel, harsh concept, unchristian even, conflicting with what they consider to be the central values of christianity : love and forgiveness. Of course I know that in the USA christians are more fundamentalistic in their believes.They are more into revenge. The idea of hell was what made me doubt god at a very young age (I was 9). Now I see it for was it really is: a terrible, unloving concept to control and manipulate people by fear. God doesn't exist, I see no use or need for such a concept, but I accept that other people do believe in a god. But Hell? I'll fight that idea with every possibility. God and religion are used by believers in all kinds of social and political issues to force religious demands and values upon all of us to restrict us in our behaviour, The resistance against gay marriage is a nice example, or the demand to teach creationism in schools. So every now and then it is important to let believers know that god doesn't exist and that I am not willing to live my life according to the supposed commandments of a non-existing entity. I don't deny god, I am convinced that he doesn't exist, there is a slight difference.
As for human conciousness and the experience of "I", a lot of interesting research is being done with promising results, so it is possible that we shall be able to answer the questions concerning it in the future. We all dream. It is possible to prove that somebody is dreaming at a certain moment, given the right machinery. Of course, we can't prove what that person is dreaming about. But maybe I should add: yet.

[usedtobebabson]

We can see the origins of Religion and Gods in the ancient Egyptians. The world's first concept of Justice comes out of Egypt. To have Justice, there must be a sense of order, a belief that there are rules governing behavior.

Ultimately it was the Pharaoh's responsibility to establish and maintain divine order in the land and once each year the King sailed up the Nile on his royal barge and took part in a kind of mystery play that ensured good would triumph over evil throughout the land.

Someone was needed who could stand in for the Pharaoh at the shrines of the gods, who could make offerings, recite the prayers that ensured the sun a successful journey through the night. These folks became the priests of Egypt. Belief was not important at this point, only that you follow the law. This was the first organized religion and over the years became very powerful, independent and wealthy.

So we had the 3 major forces of Egyptian society - kingship, the military and religion. The Pharaoh could not maintain Divine Order without the priesthood and military.

Kingship was the foundation of civilization throughout the ancient world. Every great nation had a leader without whom there would be chaos, but Egypt alone perceived its king as Divine. Other nations were led by mere mortals; in Egypt a god was at the helm.

So myths furnish insights into the nature of society. So we could define the concept of God as a means to Justice by aiding in establishing a sense of order, a belief that there are rules governing behavior.

[okeedoe]

'' But Hell? I'll fight that idea with every possibility.''-why will you fight the idea of hell when there is no hell?Do you fight the just the idea or the hell itself?Perhaps you are unconsciously trying to save people form your own fears and inner conflicts.You should moderate such impulses for it could lead to quixotism.And also it is not that easy for an average person to end up in hell.According to church one must commit a serious sin and persist in it until death. Therefore, the concept of accidentally committing such a sin is just not possible. This act must be committed with full knowledge and consent of the will. .
''The idea of hell was what made me doubt god at a very young age (I was 9).''.- Typical . At the most delicate age, you had been mentaly traumatized by posibility of an ultimate ethernal suffering so you started to deny it In order to protect yourself from the terror.It was an understandable reaction.

''Now I see it for was it really is: a terrible, unloving concept to control and manipulate people by fear''-You could use almost everything that has some value to our lives to control and manipulate people.Especially love.People do that to people ,not god.

''I don't deny god, I am convinced that he doesn't exist, there is a slight difference.''- For a convinced man ,you are too feverish to show and justify your conviction.


First you say''God doesn't exist, I see no use or need for such a concept, but I accept that other people do believe in a god''-and then ''So every now and then it is important to let believers know that god doesn't exist and that I am not willing to live my life according to the supposed commandments of a non-existing entity''.-First,it is a bit contradictory and you sound like you are on the mission.Had you been forced to live your life ''according to the supposed commandments''? The basic Christian morality and ethics are one of the pillars of our civilization.Your's,Susan's,mine.
Radical islamists are very happy to read discussions like this.


Don't consider us as a completely insignificant compared to the universe , ''for we are a children of the universe no less than the trees and the stars''.We deserved our place here through a thousands of years of evolution.
Don't get me wrong.I am not some kind of a crussader or fanatic defender of the fate(I just stick to ten commandments ,maybe a couple less) ,I only want to oppose your one-sided point of view in a good manner of constructive dialog.
You edited your last post five times!You are really on fire,brother Red.

To be continued....

[oldblue]

It is an age old philosophical axiom that it is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. It is up to those who say that it does exist to prove that.

why?

[usedtobebabson]

The catholic nuns used to tell us when we were about 5 or 6, that down in hell there is clock, but it doesn't go tick tock, it goes "you'll never get out, you'll never get out"

In today's world it's become a matter of "my gods better then your god". See, We ARE all little children playing grownup games.

[redrabid]

I would appreciate it, Okeedoe, if you stopped taking on the role of my shrink. I don't need one. You keep insinuating that my arguments (good or bad) are the results of my own inner fears or of traumatizing experiences in childhood and keep questioning my motivations. Doing so, you devaluate those arguments, without going into the matter. I am not really surprised by this. It is a wellknown strategy used by believers in dicussions about religion with unbelievers, always trying to defuse the possible explosive content of the arguments of their opponents. And that remark about editing my post 6 times (Brace yourself, I'm going to do it one more time), that was a blow beneath the belt. I'm just a lousy typist. So let's keep this debate open and clean. It may surprise you, but I am really interested in religion as a cultural phenomenon, that is why I like this discussion.
I have not the missionary intentions you ascribe to me. I support the principles underlying our free and democratic society.Therefore I shall always defend the right to believe in a god and to live according to religious laws. But (and there is no contradiction here) when believers try to impose their religious laws on me and others, robbing us of our right to live our lives in our own chosen way, I shall oppose them. Their god is a personal one, not a universal one. I am not zealous, I am passionate, passionate about my freedom.
Why I fight the idea of hell is perfectly explained by UTBB's post above. At the age of nine I couldn't accept that followers of other creeds of Christianity went to hell. Their punishment for not recognizing the True Faith."But that's not fair", I cried out to the teacher, who smiled benignly. I see hell a an amoral idea that has no place in modern society.
The basic principles of our western society may be of judeao/christian origin (debatable, it ignores the civilazing influence of humanist thinking and the Enlightment), but they are in essence the same as those of other religions and non religious ethical philosophies. Islamic fundamentalists could learn here that christianity and islam are branches of the same tree.
By the way, I like Don Quixote.

[oldblue]

wow this sure has gotten off track; i just wanted to know about the strawberry alarm clock.

[redrabid]

You made me smile, oldblue.
And thank you babson for your post on Egypt. Nice to know that there is another Egyptologist here.

[okeedoe]

Ok,Ok, just don't frown at me.I just wanted to provoke a vivacious discussion.Personally,I've got nothing against you or your standpoints.I'd like you to know that.
And for your information I am somewhwre in between the agnostic theist and believer.

Keep on talking,Red.

[redrabid]

Just in time, Okeedoe, just in time. I was going to edit my post to remark that you showed very little of yourself. But that isn't necessary anymore. I appreciate your latest post.

[Susan Butcher]

Maybe we should leave Religion and get back to Rockism and the Strawberry Alarm Clock. I fail to detect any flashes of insight in "Incense And Peppermints". Although it sounds "psychedelic", it's actually commercial kitsch. Mind you, I really like "Rainy Day Mushroom Pillow" despite the annoying nasal voice it's sung in.

[usedtobebabson]

The last question was "What is the Soul? So I think the discussion is somewhat on track. Maybe oldblue wants to know if there is any "soul" in psychedelic music

So "psychedelic" is a mind state that enables discussions like this. We can think outside the box. The Governments and Religions don't like this as they would like to keep your thinking narrow, so you can line their pockets with money without so much whining and groaning and not question their warlike activities, and arms sales.

"Soul" is what makes the fish bite